Consumer Reviews of Heat Transfer Products boilers

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Date created: 2011-02-11 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Cracking the Boiler Case"
I mentioned in an earlier post about partially opening the boiler case to condition the boiler intake air. I do want to state that by doing so, you defeat Category 4 venting requirements. IT IS IMPERATIVE that if you operate a Munchkin without the cover or with the cover partially open that you have a FirstAlert CO detector in the same room as the boiler. Please see, the Minnesota account of a NTI Trinity boiler that was improperly piped on the air intake, which lead to a death from CO poisoning. Exhaust gases from the boiler were coming back into the air intake vent. However, the air intake vent didn't connect to the boiler. The incoming air only went into the boiler room and the boiler pulled it combustion air from the boiler room rather than from outside. The boiler room filled with CO because of exhaust gas reversion. A tragic story. It is probably a good idea to have a C0 detector in the boiler room, anyway. CO detectors are cheap and save lives. A CO detector has a useful live of about 5 yrs. and then need replacing.

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Date created: 2011-02-11 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"The KISS Principle"
For the dear readers that are wondering what the KISS principle is--it's Keep It Simple, Stupid--so when it breaks down Stupid can fix it. But Adrian, where would we get the cars that get 46 miles to a gallon of gas? It is funny tho. A goal to strive for.---Geoff- Are these coffee grounds adhering to the HX (heat exchanger) or are they loose? Are they on the bottom of the HX or all around the HX? As far as conditioning the intake air with the concentric venting, I don't think that it will improve the situation as the exhaust gases don't have a lot of latent heat. As far as the condensate trap being the source of the acidic vapor getting into the blower, it may be, considering that HTP wants you to tilt the boiler toward the rear(for better drainage?). The amount of vapor getting into the blower from the condensate trap is dependent on the cross sectional area of the condensate exposed to the HX. A 1" cross sectional area will produce less vapor than a 2' cross sectional area. There might be a lot of wetness (drops etc.) on the inside of the shell of the HX which would increase the cross sectional area and the production of acidic vapor, I don't know. I do know that the colder the return water to the boiler the more condensate is produced. (Also, the more efficient the boiler is.) If you have looked at your flue on a cold day you will see the vapor condensing as it exits the flue. (steam, colloquially speaking) What I think, is that vapor in the flue cools (more dense) and falls back down the flue pushing the acidic vapor in the HX up the fuel plenum and into the blower where is condenses and does it's damage. This is why a shorter exhaust vent is more of a problem, the gases cool quicker. There is also back draft. A shorter exhaust vent is less resistant to back draft flows. I would still want to increase the post purge on the blower to push all the acidic combustion vapor out of the HX and flue vent replacing it with non acidic air. Air at 10 degrees has low humidity, certainly much less than exhaust gases in the HX. Replace that acidic air with fresh air, increase your post purge on your blower. Four blowers is a bit much and shouldn't be tolerated. Does anyone else have any ideas on this, speak up.

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Date created: 2011-02-10 Name: Geoff Marshall
Location: Little Deer Isle, ME

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"4th Blower!!!"
I looked through my records the other day and was surprised to find that I'm on my 4th blower with the 140M. The first blower was replaced because it was so noisy during the post purge. I bought the $200 Equiguard policy on the 140 which paid for one blower but they went bankrupt and it took almost a year for a check to show up. None of the blowers had much corrosion inside so I don't think they are the source of the coffee grounds. I thought about prolonging the post-purge but I think most of the moisture is from the hot water still in the condensate trap; no ideas come to mind for how to deal with this. My non-contact thermometer showed the Dungs gas valve to be 10F one day; which is why I switched to the concentric-- I was hoping the additional heating of the intake air would help and so far, it seems to be better. But if I bumped up the post purge I'd be back where I started. I used Permatex hi-temp and put the boiler back in service after about 1 hour.

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Date created: 2011-02-04 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Why Things Need Fixing"
Geoff Marshall- Little Deer Isle, ME-- Geoff, you write,"The point is, and the 'Munchkin defenders' seem to be oblivious, why do I have problems to fix?". My first typewriter was an Underwood. I typed on it in college, all I ever had to do was change ribbons. Next was a Smith-Corona electric, worked good but I had to change the belt. Then and IBM Selectric, novel, but I had to have it serviced in a shop. Now I type on a computer, fantastic, but I am growing old fixing it. (I'm a real computer Whiz Bang ) Complexity grows, just look at your car. The rule is--repairs (fixes) are directly proportional to complexity of what you're trying to fix. Boilers are really complex compared to the old days, there is a lot of complexity in the installation and system design now,too; but you know that. You're a pretty intelligent guy. I can tell that by the way you write your posts. You have already solved your problem with your 140M, "All the metal in the cabinet is corroded, but NOT from reversion--after firing, hot, wet air from the burner chamber rises up the fuel plenum, through the blower out the swirl plate and condenses on the freezing metal parts". I suggested, "increase the post purge on the blower to 100 sec." and other suggestions. I know that anyone who has attended the Vision 1 course is knowledgeable (I attended it 3 times + a Vision 2 and Vision 3 course, too), but I write not only to you but to the readers, too. They think that Vision 1 is 20-20 eyesight, not you, dear reader, but the other jokers reading these reviews), so I try to explain things for them, which is why I elaborate on the fault codes. My views on concentric venting is born out of experience and common sense. HTP may not have told you "not to use concentric venting", but remember that for years people were told that the earth was flat. I do not know which way the wind is blowing around your house, day to day, season to season, updrafts-down drafts, on and on. I would rather not chance reversion, so, I like separation. So, Geoff, how do you know that you didn't have a combination of gas reversion and contamination from the HX on the 140M? Also, I like to say that I meant to write 1500 ohms not 150 ohms on the outdoor reset sensors.--Lastly, one need only Ixquick (Google) New York Thermal, Inc. (NTI) Trinity boilers to read about the problems with that manufacturer. As I have said all manufacturers have their share of problems. I wish we didn't, but then I wouldn't be writing these post for you fine readers

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Date created: 2011-02-02 Name: Geoff Marshall
Location: Little Deer Isle, ME

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Thanks, Homer"
Thanks, Homer. It was just a review, didn't need advice (except about the 'coffee grounds'). I took the factory course. I know HOW to fix problems. The point is, and the 'Munchkin defenders' seem to be oblivious, why do I have problems to fix? The factory course wasn't tough and they didn't tell us not to use concentric vents (CV). And the 199 with the CV hasn't had the number of problems as the 149. All the fixes you give have been there from the start with the 149. Reversion: the in and out were widely separated with the exhaust sticking out about 18" further from the building; is is possible, but unlikely. Blowers: only the first blower had a disintegrating plastic fan (which appeared to have come apart at a glue joint); the others just 'died'. All the metal in the cabinet is corroded, but NOT from reversion--after firing, hot, wet air from the burner chamber rises up the fuel plenum, through the blower out the swirl plate and condenses on the freezing metal parts. HTP should have made this a sealed unit with a Honeywell valve like the Trinity. Condensate: I build a simple plywood support for the condensate drains out of the Munchkin so they don't kink. Gas piping: I request 1" or 1 1/4" from the meter and never step down until right at the unit. Pressure right on 13". Swirl plate comes with the Dungs valve. Burner tube gasket--use hi temp silicone--no more scorch marks on front refractory. We know what the error codes mean. You better start tilting your Munchkins toward the rear--read the new manual! Or open them up and put the level on the HX. The central heating curve problem is simply that sometimes it seems to calculate the wrong number in d11--not a big deal, but just another puzzler. My thermistors are like a few 1000 ohms away from where they should be, got a new one and put it in the freezer and checked against the chart in the Vision 1 manual. No good. I'm going to keep returning them until I get one that has correct resistance. Got ya with the 'coffee grounds' in the HX???

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Date created: 2011-01-29 Name: Geoff Marshall
Location: Little Deer Isle, ME

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"A tale of two Munchkins"
I have two Munchkins. A 140 at home and a 199 at a summer rental property. Both units installed in spring/summer 2005. I travelled to the HTP factory in MA and took the Vision course in order to purchase these units and followed all the instructions to the letter. The 199, which uses a concentric vent, is running better than the 140 at my house which started out with two separate pipes through the wall. Four months ago I changed the 140 to use a concentric vent. The 140 at home has been a bear. Excessive trumpeting resulted in me buying a new gas valve and manometer and combustion analyser. Spent literally DAYS dialing the unit in and finally found some settings where the trumpeting was eliminated but could never get the high and low firing specs in order--close but no cigar. Then a couple of months later, the blower (#1), which always made a lot of noise at post purge disintegrated. The new blower had a metal, instead of plastic, fan, so obviously EBM (the blower manufacturer) saw there was a problem with the fan. Blower (#2) lasted approx 6 months. I managed to get warranty satisfaction through calls to HTP and FW Webb, my supplier and Emmerson, FW Webb's supplier. If you're counting, I'm on blower #3 and it is quiet and works well. I have also had to replace both the burner refractory and target refractory as they were cracked up and disintegrating. This unit has also had numerous F09, F10 and F11 lockouts. I take it apart and clean it twice a year. During a service while rinsing (yes I remove the target refractory when cleaning), I noticed that the water level at the front of the heat exchanger (HX) was higher than at the rear, so I put the level IN the burner chamber. The HX itself was racked with respect to the blow-molded case so I had to shim the Munchkin to achieve a level HX. I see there is now a 'Rev 2' installation manual for the Munchkin that says the unit should be tilted back toward the condensate drain. When I took the Vision 1 class, we were told level and put the level on the blow-molded case. How many installers actually take the unit apart and check the drainage? Then there is the outdoor reset. I noticed that the d5 status was showing an incorrect outdoor temperature. I replaced the outdoor sensor to no avail. Also the programmed outdoor reset curve doesn't seem to work as stated. I set my slope at 1.0 (from 110@35 to 165@-20) just to check its operation and at d5 reporting 32 degrees my calcutated setpoint should be 110 + 3 but Munchkin reported d11 status as 115. On the other hand, the 199 has worked quite well and been nice and quiet. Only on the second blower, It started locking out with F11's, but cleaning the rectifier seems to have solved the problem. IMHO a boiler should not lock out. I have had to buy a freeze alarm for the rental to alert me when the boiler is no longer working. At cleaning, both units have a fair amount of granular debris in the HX. My stepfather had a NTI Trinity installed, which is basically the guts of the Munchkin flipped over with the blower beneath the burner and a different computer. His HX is totally clean. We both use the same propane gas delivered from the same propane truck. In my area there is not a single installer or gas guy that has a combustion analyser which makes getting help from HTP tough because their first question is always, "What are your combustion levels?" I do not know ANYBODY here in Maine that can tell me their central heat boiler locked out the other day and all they had to do was hit the RESET button. So that's my story with almost no opinion thrown in. What would you buy for $3800? Why is the Trinity and Vitodens, which are almost identical units, so much more reliable?

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Date created: 2011-01-17 Name: Lawrence
Location: Markham, Ontario ,Canada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"90 % of the errors are due to installation"
I wrote a review a while back on Munchkin. The biggest problem for the boilers are as follows. 1.) Vent too long,vent termination too close,or in a corner. 2.)Condensate drain not properly sloped or sized(1/2 inch ID will not work and plug up quickly due to debris from heat exchanger.I use 3/4 ID and a neutralizer(remember the condensate is acidic and will eat copper, cast drain pipe.) I recommend these boilers should be installed about 4 inches off the ground for better drainage. 3.)Gas piping and gas pressure.Ensure you design the gas pipe to no more than 1/2" pressure drop on natural gas and you will be safe. 4.) Hydronic piping must be done properly. Reverse return dose not work properly and over heats the boiler. Remember to pump(pump sizing is important) into the highest head(the boiler or/and heat exchangers). A Combustion analyzer must be used to ensure proper set up. NO!! the boiler display will not show you the CO AND CO2 READINGS . If you do not own an analyzer , please call a qualified technician that does. If you are willing to pay for my plane ticket and hotel room , food etc . I will be more than happy to help, but keep in mind it is a busy season . Good Luck !!

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Date created: 2011-01-17 Name: Dean
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"F09 error"
I noticed many owners experiencing an F09 error. (no flame detected). This can occure for several reasons, but I thought I'd share my experience. I worked on a propane fed Munchkin boiler that was returning an F09 error. After checking for proper cycling of the unit and getting normal results; without getting ignition in the flamebox, I pulled out the electrode and checked for spark. A spark was present as a solid blue streak between the electrode tips. I started to carefully adjust the electrode closer and then further apart. In my situation, I found the unbroken blue arc did not produce enough heat to ignite the propane in the flame box. It was only after inceasing the distance between the electrode tips that I was able to get a broken arc of blue with white sparks at each end of the electrode tip. This arc would litterally dance around on the electrode tips. This adjustment produced enough heat to ignite the propane and the unit began to function normally. Please note that the electrode material is hardened and will break easily, Also, too much pressure on the ceramic can break the insulator creating even more problems. So for all you F09'ers out there, go out and purchase a new electrode/with gasket, and then check it against the old one. (about 50 bucks). Please keep in mind that there are several serious factors that can produce a non-ignition situation and the built-in safe guards of the unit are there for a reason. Lets remember that we are dealing with explosive gases that can turn your home <and those in it> into bits and pieces in an instant. So, sleep well at night, I advise having a professional check out your unit. But if they're scratching thier head, or even if they aren't, it doesn't hurt to mention this piece of information before you experience multiple service calls, headaches (and invoices) for a relativly simple fix.

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Date created: 2010-12-08 Name: Bob shenzle

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Interesting"
This device saved us from nearly freezing, we had an old drum brand coal converted to oil steam boiler that had backfires on the burner. We finally replaced the unit. it worked fine, was actually 79.5% efficient, but the beckett burner would backfire and shut off every time it tried to start. (lock-outs were also a problem). so i went to a boiler supplier and got a good deal on a munchkin boiler, and installed it myself, I am quite handy. the thing worked fine, but the fan warning symbol (f14, I believe?) kept flashing. i went to see what the combustion air intake was like and was actually sucking like a vacuum. every body said it was impossible, but it happened. it was causing such a good draft that the PVC vent got too hot for operation and we had to have a steel pipe installed. it was excellent and reliable though, which is why I titled this "interesting". I do recommend it.

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Date created: 2010-11-05 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Reputable Munchkin Installer"
Jay Plesset-- The reason that Heat Transfer doesn't allow the fixing of the electronics is that the liability problem is enormous. The blower is most likely a Variable Frequency Drive motor. It's operation is complex, controlled by the computer. It is just not fixable and because it is highly electronic with rare earth magnets and made in Germany (dollar exchange rate with the Euro etc.) it is expensive. F14=Fan running to fast. Check the molex plugs for good contact on the blower and computer. Clean contacts with a good quality electronic contact cleaner that is safe for circuit boards (plastics). If still over reving, replace blower. Hopefully it is not the computer. If you need to replace the blower, take the cover off the old one and inspect the housing and the impeller for corrosion or damage. If there is damage, change the exhaust and air intake loc- ations. Put 4 to 5 feet between them to elim- inate exhaust re- circulation through the boiler. Heat Transfer's older instruction on venting created a lot of exhaust recirculation. Most all installers, myself included, followed those instructions because deviating from those instructions may void the warranty and incur liability. Those venting instructions have now changed. A Big No, on concentric venting(my opinion).

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