Consumer Reviews of Heat Transfer Products boilers

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Date created: 2011-12-25 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada
Years owned: 7

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Merry Christmas--This year in review !!!"
I hope that all you Munchkin owners are warm and cozy this Christmas season; I know I am, of course my Munchkin was installed by a trained professional--me. Sorry, I really am here to help, dear readers. Rather than ranting about the product, seeking a solution for your problem might be a better course of action, don't you think? There are plenty of tips in these posts, so read them. ---wayne hoefler, Cripple Creek,CO-- There is no adjustment for High Altitude except a combustion analysis with a recently calibrated meter. --hl bent and steve of BeltLine Heating-- Kudos to you. --mark, Derry,NH--I can hardly believe that the Munchkin is responsible for your pumps failing(I'd like to hear about that, I'm always willing to learn). $2000 for a repair and circulators seems way over the top. PS-Use Grundfos pumps which can be taken apart and cleaned rather than Taco pumps --important--b nordt, Virginia--Your gas valve is incorrectly set and allowing too much gas into the combustion chamber. Do a combustion analysis and check your gas supply pressure. I've seen this happen for those reasons. --vicki allison, Cape May, nj--whoa babe, Two control boards??? And your techie says that there aren't and faults on the display, so you need a new board for $1000 smackers. You have just encountered the dreaded parts changer (see earlier posts). Did he hook up his laptop computer to the control board and look at the fault history? Duh! F03 is a fault with the return (water coming back to the boiler) sensor (thermistor, a temperature variable resistor). You would disconnect the wires and measure the resistance on the sensor and check the temperature gauge and look at the chart in the installation manual and see if your resistance measurements, relatively, corresponds to the temperature on the gauge. If so look some where else for the problem. like the harness! Read my earlier post on f05 problems and tinning the Molex connectors. I sure the first technician was working for his ged. PS-There were some problems with the molex connectors.-- c m, Vancouver, Canada--I like Triangle Tube boilers. They're a different design. Munchkins are a low mass, high head boiler and Triangle Tube is a medium mass, low head boiler. Mass is the amount of water in the hx and head is the pressure needed to push water through the hx at a given gallons per minute. All boilers need maintenance and cleaning. Reminds me of the story of a world traveler in the 1800 talking to a Texan and describing a giraffe. After a bit, the Texan look at him and said, "There ain't no such animal". A self cleaning hx? There ain't no such animal. Ever hear of a self cleaning spark plug for you car? Didn't think so. As for your boilers, you have installation problems, me thinketh. --margie b, Dayton, Ky--The failure in the easier blowers was that the plastic impellers came apart. The new replacements have metal impellers. Don't let a boiler guy replace the blower with an plastic version. Take the old one apart and check the impeller for damage, if none check the control board and wiring harness. I don't think that your model has a negative pressure switch proving the blower is blowing. Also, have your boiler guy increase the blower post purge to 100 sec from 25 sec. You need a laptop computer, control board to computer harness, and htp program to do this. This important for short exhaust vent lengths.--KIM, Greenfield Center NY--I've covered f09 error code and their causes in previous posts. foo error code is a thermostat polarity connection problem with two causes: polarity of the two gray tt wires connected to the control board or a grounding of the gray tt wires or the grounding of the thermostat wires connected between the thermostat and gray tt wire. The polarity problem: disconnect the two gray tt wires from the thermostat wires and twist the two gray tt wires together and reset the boiler and that should fix that. Check to make sure none of the wires are grounded to anything metal. If you are using a current robbing thermostat replace it. I like White/Rogers(Emerson) thermostats 1f89-344 or similar types. --G. brown, Edmond, Oklahoma--You have an installation problem. Betcha, Betcha, Betcha Happy New Years to all you dear readers and may your house be blessed with warmth and happiness. If not your house, then, surely, your heart. That's pretty much a wrap for 2011.

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Date created: 2011-12-08 Name: HL Bent
Location: MD

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Reality"
I was trained and taught to service Munchkin. I have a mastergasfitters license, master plumbers and master hvac. I even have a conversion burner gas license. I have found in over thirty years of service the simplest systems work best because simple people are more plentiful than complicated people and complicated stuff. Could it be that the majority of people refuse to invest in $1,500.00 analyzers and thousands of dollars of special instruments to actually do their jobs? Could it be they stop investing in education to stay current? I love the kiss method, but I have also found technology gives us more options. The trick is to embrace it and use it properly and hire people who know what to do. All products from the simple to the complex have problems. All maufacturers have had lemons in design and in units. But the first step is in the installer. Not all products can be applied everywhere. Choose wisely. Two, most installers barely have a high school education and it each day goes by they get more stupid as they do not train and educate. The consumer often gets the raw deal, because these people blame anybody, anything but themselves for the problems they face. When we blame the wrong thing we fail to work on the real problem. I can make a bad product look good or a good product look bad. What I can't do is get people to make better choices on who they hire because they are often too lazy to shop properly. You can't hire talent on low price and no background checking. If all you want is someone to light a wood log, you might just succeed with anybody, but in the area of combustion and today's technology that has been forced upon us with government standards and high cost of fuel and poor building designs, you have to hire experts. Without fail, every job I have gone on with a problem, had 3 issues. the part that failed, the thing that caused it to fail and lack of maintenance. I am not a fan of munchkin because it is complex and requires special training and tools, but don't most automobiles fit that same category? And I buy both. Heck, my whole industry now requires the equivalent of a college graduate to qualify for the work we have to do. If I have a choice I look for simple product that best fits my need and apply it properly. This alone eliminates 90% of service problems. Installation is the 100% most important part after the sale. It is here a 1/4" off level or a wire not tight, or some lack of knowledge, integrity and persistence to make it right ruins the project. And then even if it is perfect, we begin to use it and wear it out. Maintenance proper and complete at the full price required gives the consumer the best chance of having a good experience. If you can't afford the maintenance, you can't afford to own it. And yes even the best and simplest can be complicated by improper use of a thing. So I believe it when some people call this product junk and some call it great. I usually find the "junk" is a result of an incorrect choice, improperly applied, installed, used or serviced. It are these facts I have based and built my business on and why I call the plumbing heating and cooling fields recession proof. Good luck to all. Thanks to all who provide positive helpful comments. We all need to hear them all good and bad.

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Date created: 2011-08-31 Name: Brian McDougall
Location: BC

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Coffee grounds"
I service these units and replaced some under warranty but never sold one. The problems with these units is lack of service and that may mean two service call a year. The biggest issue is cleaning the hx and trap - the coffee grounds that you find in the chamber is the ore coming out of the ss HX(use a magnet to pick it up and see)and this will clog the trap (one of the reasons). These will work well if you get a service person that knows them and is competent. Installation is crucial. I would recommend a electrical tank for back up and try to find a really good technician that can work on them as with pretty much any condensing boiler.

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Date created: 2011-04-15 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
""A Cry In The Wilderness, Sgt. Preston to the Rescue" "Onward Huskies""
C. MacKenzie- NW20 110 15 W5--Catherine, Catherine, Catherine, what am I going to do with you? You cry for help, but provide no information.--I'm trying to hone in on your problem, but my clairvoyance only reaches to Calgary.---Being in the remote outback, you have few choices in agents to fix your boiler, I suspect. There are Fault Codes to help diagnose your problem. The Munchkin (unless it is a HA model) has two probes (electrodes). A spark ignitor probe and a rectifying probe. They both need to be cleaned. (see earlier posts) Hot surface ignitors DO NOT need to be cleaned---there are so many things that can cause a boiler not to fire, so a sequence of operations may be helpful. The foregoing is not exact.----The thermostat closes (calls for heat), signaling the control board to turn on the boiler. The control board checks the sensors, gas valve, and blower (electronics). If everything is ok it turns on the blower for a pre-purge of the combustion chamber and then initiates the spark or hot surface ignitor, then opens the gas valve and check for ignition through flame rectification. (4.1 Micro-amps) The boiler produces hot water for heat. When the thermostat is satisfied, it opens, and the boiler turns off. Anything disrupting this process will cause the boiler not to fire. For example: No gas present or wrong pressure--Wrong polarity on the 115 volt wiring--Dirty AC voltage sine wave (Harmonics on the AC voltage line)--No ground or intermittent ground (green wire)-- Current on the ground wire (green wire)--Thermostat or thermostat wiring open--Failed sensor or intermittent sensor--Wiring harness connections not making good contact--The blower negative pressure tube to the sensor leaking--The spark electrode gap is incorrect --Gas valve set too lean--Flue sensor over heated--Loose connection between the blower and gas valve--Plugged intake or exhaust vent or vent too long--Condensate not draining (water vapor build up in the combustion chamber--The air pressure sensor stuck closed--Loose burner tube--The 925 Control Board overheating (IC-6 ?)--Power surges or brownouts can damage the control board, has that happened?--Insufficient water pressure in the system----Catherine you get the picture. There is a diagnostic and solution for all of these. Catherine you need a Major Maintenance on your boiler if it is 4 yrs old and read the earlier posts for more information. Hope this helps.

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Date created: 2011-04-03 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
""It's elementary, dear Watson"--Sherlock Holmes"
D Krueger--Richland Center, WI--I'd be pretty p*ssed off if my Munchkin performed like yours. I'd want to get to the source of the problem, which you obviously haven't from what you said about your repair history. "I suspect, dear Watson that you've encountered the dreaded Parts Replacer." In other words, "We will keep replacing parts till we fix the problem, no matter how much it costs." The problem is that a contractor gets a license and he thinks that makes him capable. It's worse when the home owner believes that, too. You have to make an informed judgment about who works on your boiler. (Choose Wisely) Any plumber worth his salt can solder two pipes together. (Although, I still have trouble with it and I've been at it for over 40 years. I figure in another 40 years I'll have it mastered.) To be capable, your contractor needs training, experience, and intelligence. (I know what you're thinking, a plumber and intelligence are a mutually exclusive thing.) He need intelligence to make a rational analysis of your problem and training to understand what he is applying his intelligence to: the Munchkin, specifically, how it functions. You want someone who has experience with Munchkins. You don't want someone gaining "practice time" on your dime. So ask the pertinent questions regarding training and experience. Also, ask, what's wrong and why you think so?--Why do I need this part and why did it fail?--You're his employer, you have a right to know, you hired him. After he removes the case cover, your question should be, "Are you going to connect your Laptop computer to the control board on the Munchkin?" Your contractor's answer should be, "that's the next thing, I was going to do." Any other response, beware. If he does say that, get down on your knees and kiss his feet, HALLELUJAH! you've just found the Holy Grail of boiler repairmen. You could ply him with lots of yummy cake and coffee. The Laptop can access the control board's memory which stores information on the Munchkin's performance and can change the boiler's parameters with the right software. In summary--you don't want a Parts Changer working on your boiler--unless you're JD Rockefeller.---Your combined vent length for 3" PVC is about 85'(intake added to exhaust) minus so many feet for each tee, 90 & 45 degree fitting in the your venting system. So, depending on the fittings (sharp 90 or Long Sweep 90) your existing combined vent length can be a lot shorter than 85'. Fittings reduce the allowable length of the combined vent.---YEARLY MAINTENANCE---The first thing that I do for yearly maintenance, and I have been doing a lot of them lately, is collect the money in advance, hahaha! I connect a laptop to the control board and read the history on the boiler. I want to know how long the boiler has been operating, when was the last maintenance, and what was done and whether the boiler needs a tune-up or a major cleaning. In a yearly maintenance, I assume a tune-up. I clean the electrodes, check the system piping configuration and look for anything out of the ordinary, replace the o-ring on the pressure/temperature gauge (an A111-HNBR o-ring replacement) an EPDM o-ring would work, too. I don't use NB o-rings as they don"t stand up to temperatures as well. The factory o-ring hardens from the temperature and water begins to drip from the connection in about 3 years. I run the boiler through its paces and check the rectification current and the high and low fan speeds while looking at the flame through the viewing port. I look at the target refractory for damage. I check the condensate drain for flow and if it has a neutralizer connected, I check the PH with a meter. I check the wiring harnesses. I look for signs of exhaust reversion and look at the outside venting terminations. There are other thing that I do, too, but this covers most of it. I can do this less than an hour at reasonable cost, which doesn't take food from the mouths of your children.---MAJOR MAINTENANCE---All of the above plus a deep cleaning of the HX (heat exchanger), replacing the burner gasket and tighten the four screws with a 1/4" socket wrench, good-n-tite. I always replace the burner gasket whether it needs it or not. It's kinda like, I take a shower once a month whether I need it of not. The burner gasket is cheap and I don't want a failure and have to do it, later. Not having a secure burner attachment affect the rectification current and can cause an F09 error code. I do a combustion analysis and check the boiler Hi and Low fire and efficiency. I find that a MAJOR MAINTENANCE needs on average (my experience) to be done every 3 years. It takes me about 3 hours to do one. It cost more. OK, so your kids will be eating porridge for a week, at least they'll be warm.---Keep a log on your boiler and give it to your boiler guy when he comes a knock'n.--- Please, read the other posts.

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Date created: 2011-03-09 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
""Just the Facts, Mam."--Joe Friday"
Ken H--Central PA--Let's get our facts straight for the dear readers. The swirl plate is mow made of nylon and aluminum and is sandwiched between the Dungs gas valve and the blower housing. I think that Ken was referring to the blower impeller, which rotates inside the blower housing and not the swirl plate. The new blowers for the 140M and 199M now have metal impellers. The 80M is still plastic, however. The metal impellers are not one piece cast aluminum, but are constructed of many pieces placed together. I believe that the metal impellers are a vast improvement over the plastic impellers and when replacing a blower, you should insist on a metal impeller in your new replacement blower.---Secondly, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have cavitation in a blower. Cavitation is the creation of micro vapor bubbles which implode at the outer edge of the impeller and volute due to pressure changes within the pump housing. Cavitation is most often very destructive as well as noisy and we try to avoid it in water pumps that have impellers. Ken H. I know what you meant but the dear readers may be in the dark as to what you were implying. My take on the failure of the plastic impeller is this, the plastic impellers, which are made of hydrocarbons are weakened by acidic hydrocarbon vapors from combustion process getting into the blower housing thru gas reversion (an installation issue) and or vapors moving up the fuel plenum to the blower housing from the combustion chamber plus stresses on the rotating impeller. Plastics don't handle acidic hydrocarbons very well.---All high efficiency boilers require regular maintenance. As far as cost savings, my 140M cost about $150 to $200 per month in the cold winter months for heating and domestic hot water, whereas, my old Slant Fin cast iron boiler cost me $300 to $350 a month in winter. So the savings more than compensates for the required maintenance. If natural gas prices escalate the saving would be greater. I haven't had any trouble with my boiler. Of course my Munchkin is professionally installed by a knowledgeable expert, me!

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Date created: 2011-03-08 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Throwing off the review results"
Tom--St Louis, MO If you look at my last 4 posts, you would see that I did check neutral. One should read the posts and not depend on the ratings, anyway. There are many posts that repeat that are checked unsatisfied that skew the results, too. It all balances out. When making a decision about buying a boiler, read the posts as they contain a lot of valuable information. Most important--choose your installer wisely.... David--Salem, Virginia A cracked heat exchanger would create water flowing into the combustion chamber and it is unlikely that the boiler would function at all. If it is leaking outside of the boiler shell it is most likely coming from the header connection to the heat exchanger or the brass nipples. these can be fixed... Merle D--N E Iowa Soon, you may not be able to buy a 84% boiler. Europe has mandated by law, the replacement of all inefficient boiler with high efficient ones. The US of A is about 5 to 8 years behind them but catching up fast. Heat Transfer Products makes a low maintenance, efficient boiler called the Pioneer, which is suitable for many boiler replacements in existing systems. Replacing a boiler in an existing system is a difficult challenge. It is better to design a system from scratch in new construction. Then everything works together. Most of these complaints are replacement boiler in existing systems. So the installation is the primary suspect in malfuncting systems. Sometimes the boiler is at fault, but I lay my bet with the application and installation.

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Date created: 2011-02-25 Name: Tom
Location: St Louis, MO

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Homer is throwing off the review results"
Every time Homer answers a question he posts as "Very Satisfied" This gets logged into the system and even though he is one person, he gets multiple votes throwing off the review ratings for the Munchkin brand furnaces. This should be fixed and if it can not be fixed, then Homer can you please post with "Neutral" selected from now on when you give advise? Thanks.

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Date created: 2011-02-11 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Cracking the Boiler Case"
I mentioned in an earlier post about partially opening the boiler case to condition the boiler intake air. I do want to state that by doing so, you defeat Category 4 venting requirements. IT IS IMPERATIVE that if you operate a Munchkin without the cover or with the cover partially open that you have a FirstAlert CO detector in the same room as the boiler. Please see, the Minnesota account of a NTI Trinity boiler that was improperly piped on the air intake, which lead to a death from CO poisoning. Exhaust gases from the boiler were coming back into the air intake vent. However, the air intake vent didn't connect to the boiler. The incoming air only went into the boiler room and the boiler pulled it combustion air from the boiler room rather than from outside. The boiler room filled with CO because of exhaust gas reversion. A tragic story. It is probably a good idea to have a C0 detector in the boiler room, anyway. CO detectors are cheap and save lives. A CO detector has a useful live of about 5 yrs. and then need replacing.

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Date created: 2011-02-11 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"The KISS Principle"
For the dear readers that are wondering what the KISS principle is--it's Keep It Simple, Stupid--so when it breaks down Stupid can fix it. But Adrian, where would we get the cars that get 46 miles to a gallon of gas? It is funny tho. A goal to strive for.---Geoff- Are these coffee grounds adhering to the HX (heat exchanger) or are they loose? Are they on the bottom of the HX or all around the HX? As far as conditioning the intake air with the concentric venting, I don't think that it will improve the situation as the exhaust gases don't have a lot of latent heat. As far as the condensate trap being the source of the acidic vapor getting into the blower, it may be, considering that HTP wants you to tilt the boiler toward the rear(for better drainage?). The amount of vapor getting into the blower from the condensate trap is dependent on the cross sectional area of the condensate exposed to the HX. A 1" cross sectional area will produce less vapor than a 2' cross sectional area. There might be a lot of wetness (drops etc.) on the inside of the shell of the HX which would increase the cross sectional area and the production of acidic vapor, I don't know. I do know that the colder the return water to the boiler the more condensate is produced. (Also, the more efficient the boiler is.) If you have looked at your flue on a cold day you will see the vapor condensing as it exits the flue. (steam, colloquially speaking) What I think, is that vapor in the flue cools (more dense) and falls back down the flue pushing the acidic vapor in the HX up the fuel plenum and into the blower where is condenses and does it's damage. This is why a shorter exhaust vent is more of a problem, the gases cool quicker. There is also back draft. A shorter exhaust vent is less resistant to back draft flows. I would still want to increase the post purge on the blower to push all the acidic combustion vapor out of the HX and flue vent replacing it with non acidic air. Air at 10 degrees has low humidity, certainly much less than exhaust gases in the HX. Replace that acidic air with fresh air, increase your post purge on your blower. Four blowers is a bit much and shouldn't be tolerated. Does anyone else have any ideas on this, speak up.

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