Consumer Reviews of Heat Transfer Products boilers

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Date created: 2011-02-02 Name: Geoff Marshall
Location: Little Deer Isle, ME

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Thanks, Homer"
Thanks, Homer. It was just a review, didn't need advice (except about the 'coffee grounds'). I took the factory course. I know HOW to fix problems. The point is, and the 'Munchkin defenders' seem to be oblivious, why do I have problems to fix? The factory course wasn't tough and they didn't tell us not to use concentric vents (CV). And the 199 with the CV hasn't had the number of problems as the 149. All the fixes you give have been there from the start with the 149. Reversion: the in and out were widely separated with the exhaust sticking out about 18" further from the building; is is possible, but unlikely. Blowers: only the first blower had a disintegrating plastic fan (which appeared to have come apart at a glue joint); the others just 'died'. All the metal in the cabinet is corroded, but NOT from reversion--after firing, hot, wet air from the burner chamber rises up the fuel plenum, through the blower out the swirl plate and condenses on the freezing metal parts. HTP should have made this a sealed unit with a Honeywell valve like the Trinity. Condensate: I build a simple plywood support for the condensate drains out of the Munchkin so they don't kink. Gas piping: I request 1" or 1 1/4" from the meter and never step down until right at the unit. Pressure right on 13". Swirl plate comes with the Dungs valve. Burner tube gasket--use hi temp silicone--no more scorch marks on front refractory. We know what the error codes mean. You better start tilting your Munchkins toward the rear--read the new manual! Or open them up and put the level on the HX. The central heating curve problem is simply that sometimes it seems to calculate the wrong number in d11--not a big deal, but just another puzzler. My thermistors are like a few 1000 ohms away from where they should be, got a new one and put it in the freezer and checked against the chart in the Vision 1 manual. No good. I'm going to keep returning them until I get one that has correct resistance. Got ya with the 'coffee grounds' in the HX???

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Date created: 2011-02-01 Name: John Romano
Location: Illinois

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"JUNK, don;t buy!!!"
Have had this piece of junk for 5 years. Every year there is some type of issue. Had the replace the blower unit because a plastic fan falling apart. The fan probably costs $5 but you have to buy the entire blower unit which is $700. The new unit has a metal fan. Now I am told that the computer board needs to be reprogrammed for the fan to run 90 seconds not 30. THe swirl plate is bad again. You will pay top dollar for this product and be a test bed for their enginering team. Don't count on getting any support from the company... they are just as bad as their product!

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Date created: 2011-01-29 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Reputable Installer"
Geoff Marshall-- Little Deer Isle, ME--First of all, let me state again my aversion to concentric venting. I don't do it or recommend it. Putting the exhaust and intake so close together is asking for trouble. The plastic impeller in the blowers don't handle partially burned acidic hydrocarbon very well. The new 140 and 199 blowers have stainless impellers and it is about time. Plastic fatigues when rotating at 3200 rpm and I am sure that the stresses and acidic CO accelerate the disintegration of the plastic impeller. So try my odd ball, First Alert, Knight CO detector in your cabinet, idea (see earlier posts)and see if there is reversion. When ever you remove a malfunctioning blower, always open it up and examine the inside. If the aluminum inside is black and scaly and the impeller is rough, pitted and coming apart. You have gas reversion problem. Moist acidic exhaust inside the cabinet is bad news for electronics as acid compounds conduct electricity which can't be good for the ICs (Integrated Circuits) inside. I WILL MENTION THIS NOW, FOR THE FIRST TIME. I always install a high efficiency boiler with a computer grade 4200+ joules surge protector. Everything is run off of it, even pumps. If lighting or surges are common in your area, a whole house surge protection system is essential.---Ok I don't know when the trumpeting started on the 140M or what trumpeting sound like to you. But this can happen if you have a Dungs gas valve on instead of the old Honeywell gas valve. The swirl plate that is between the gas valve and the blower is made of Nylon (now nylon and aluminum) and if the vanes disintegrate as they will because of CO and or dust and dirt in the intake air, it will cause a vibrating sound. The swirl plate should always be inspected when replacing a Dungs gas valve. The Dungs gas valve doesn't use the cork gasket which is on the new blower and it should be removed when installing the swirl plate to the blower. All three components need to be tightly connected as one unit. Look thru the sight glass as the boiler is running does the flame pulsate with the trumpeting? Yes?, Check the swirl plate and check the input pressure on the gas valve. The gauge should be within 1/2" of water/column. Static pressure for NG is 7" W/C and propane 12-14" W/C. You must have a full 3/4" gas pipe into the Munchkin as the valve draws a vacuum on the gas line. The gas pipe from the meter with all it's tees and branch lines must be calculated properly for flow.-- The refractories will crack, the target more so. They are fragile. I always have an extra set on hand during cleaning the combustion chamber. I only clean the combustion chamber when needed, not twice a year. And I always replace the burner tube gasket and tighten the 4 screws with a socket wrench nice and tight. (the cause of many F09 error codes)(see my earlier posts) F10 ERROR CODES--F10 is indicative of a flame failure while the Munchkin is running. FIRST-check that the condensate drain is clear and flowing freely. Condensate back-ups create steam which suffocates the flame, throws off rectification, soaks the refractory plates, causing the spark to ground out. SECOND-check the flame rod by depressing and holding the S4 button on the control module, the display should read D1. press and release the button till D7 appears. D7 reading should be as close to 4.1 micro amps as possible even tho it may be a little low at starting but go up to 4.0 when running. The reading is directly related to the CO output of the boiler. Tighten the 4 bolts on the burner tube. F11 ERROR CODES--Flame rod sees flame when there is no actual flame. Check wiring to the gas valve (clean and jacks & plugs with a computer grade electronic cleaner). This can happen when the boiler is short cycling and the combustion chamber is super heated. Check for a blocked flue. The exhaust vent should be pitched 1/4" per foot back to the boiler. Make sure your not venting too long a length. Always check your wiring harnesses. I have never had a problem with the condensate if the case is level. I always mount my Munchkins on a metal stand 18" off the floor with a platform that is level both ways. YES--there is some variation with the outdoor reset temperature reading. I've placed 4 (vision 1) thermistors side by side in cold weather and they have varied one from another by 150 ohms or so. I don't quite understand what you are trying to say a far as your "Central Heating Curve" goes. As far as granular debris in the combustion chamber, I don't know. Cleaning HX coils after 3 yrs, the deposits were what you would see on automobile spark plugs with a properly tuned engine, that is my experience. Nothing like you're are describing . Hope this helps. P.S. You need a Combustion Analyzer, folks.

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Date created: 2011-01-29 Name: Geoff Marshall
Location: Little Deer Isle, ME

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"A tale of two Munchkins"
I have two Munchkins. A 140 at home and a 199 at a summer rental property. Both units installed in spring/summer 2005. I travelled to the HTP factory in MA and took the Vision course in order to purchase these units and followed all the instructions to the letter. The 199, which uses a concentric vent, is running better than the 140 at my house which started out with two separate pipes through the wall. Four months ago I changed the 140 to use a concentric vent. The 140 at home has been a bear. Excessive trumpeting resulted in me buying a new gas valve and manometer and combustion analyser. Spent literally DAYS dialing the unit in and finally found some settings where the trumpeting was eliminated but could never get the high and low firing specs in order--close but no cigar. Then a couple of months later, the blower (#1), which always made a lot of noise at post purge disintegrated. The new blower had a metal, instead of plastic, fan, so obviously EBM (the blower manufacturer) saw there was a problem with the fan. Blower (#2) lasted approx 6 months. I managed to get warranty satisfaction through calls to HTP and FW Webb, my supplier and Emmerson, FW Webb's supplier. If you're counting, I'm on blower #3 and it is quiet and works well. I have also had to replace both the burner refractory and target refractory as they were cracked up and disintegrating. This unit has also had numerous F09, F10 and F11 lockouts. I take it apart and clean it twice a year. During a service while rinsing (yes I remove the target refractory when cleaning), I noticed that the water level at the front of the heat exchanger (HX) was higher than at the rear, so I put the level IN the burner chamber. The HX itself was racked with respect to the blow-molded case so I had to shim the Munchkin to achieve a level HX. I see there is now a 'Rev 2' installation manual for the Munchkin that says the unit should be tilted back toward the condensate drain. When I took the Vision 1 class, we were told level and put the level on the blow-molded case. How many installers actually take the unit apart and check the drainage? Then there is the outdoor reset. I noticed that the d5 status was showing an incorrect outdoor temperature. I replaced the outdoor sensor to no avail. Also the programmed outdoor reset curve doesn't seem to work as stated. I set my slope at 1.0 (from 110@35 to 165@-20) just to check its operation and at d5 reporting 32 degrees my calcutated setpoint should be 110 + 3 but Munchkin reported d11 status as 115. On the other hand, the 199 has worked quite well and been nice and quiet. Only on the second blower, It started locking out with F11's, but cleaning the rectifier seems to have solved the problem. IMHO a boiler should not lock out. I have had to buy a freeze alarm for the rental to alert me when the boiler is no longer working. At cleaning, both units have a fair amount of granular debris in the HX. My stepfather had a NTI Trinity installed, which is basically the guts of the Munchkin flipped over with the blower beneath the burner and a different computer. His HX is totally clean. We both use the same propane gas delivered from the same propane truck. In my area there is not a single installer or gas guy that has a combustion analyser which makes getting help from HTP tough because their first question is always, "What are your combustion levels?" I do not know ANYBODY here in Maine that can tell me their central heat boiler locked out the other day and all they had to do was hit the RESET button. So that's my story with almost no opinion thrown in. What would you buy for $3800? Why is the Trinity and Vitodens, which are almost identical units, so much more reliable?

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Date created: 2011-01-27 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Reputable Installer"
Tim H.-New Hampshire--Tim, do you mean to tell me that in 7 yrs. you replaced 4 boilers (units)? If that's true, the odds of that happening are astounding. It would be easier to win the Powerball Lottery. What this tells me is that you got an installation, system or gas reversion problem that has never been addressed. I'm assuming that you mean something else? If your last boiler was 3 1/2 yrs old, you more than likely have Honeywell gas valve and not a Dungs gas valve on it. Gas reversion will do a number on the electronics, wiring, blower and 3 1/2 years is about how long it takes for the damage to surface. Honeywell gas valves need a reducing disk installed when using propane gas. There is more going on here than meets the eye. Also everyone, when posting, PLEASE, state model #, gas type, FAULT CODES, and date of installation. Just don't rile against Munchkin, although you can do that too. Venting your feelings helps you , but doesn't help the reader understand what is going on. Give the readers more information about your experience so that the reader can render an informed judgment about your situation.

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Date created: 2011-01-26 Name: Tim H.
Location: New Hampshire

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"I'm tearing it out this spring"
I have a Munchin 140, Like the vast majority of the other reviews this boiler has been a total disapointment since it was installed 7 or eight years ago. I am on the 4th unit now the first years with this piece of junk were filled with constant failures, new replacement units and I can't count the number of call backs. The 4th unit was installed about 3 1/2 years ago and was working okay until this past weekend when the gas valve failed. It was the coldest weather we've had in years 10 to 15 below zero. Parts are not readily availble, had to UPS them in. 4 days without heat. The design is terrible. You can't get to the condensate line to clean it because it's underneath the unit. The process they recommend to clear it is so involved that it boarders just plain stupid. The control panel was an obvious afterthough and is not integral to the cabinet. The control wiring connects to the board inside the the. It then has to be draped over the side of the unit to get it outside to where the control panel attaches to the side with velcro. Plenty of other design flaws but not enough room here to descibe them. Told my wife when the weather breaks this spring I'm replacing it with something more reliable, and I'm crossing my fingers that it will last till spring.

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Date created: 2011-01-24 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Reputable Installer"
Lydia Hulette--Sturgeon Lake, MN--CORRECTION There are 6 ways a pressure relief valve can discharge water. The two I missed was #5. Too large a boiler pump, way too much head (pressure). On start ups the pump creates so much pressure that it pops the pressure relief valve open. #6 I have to mention this because someone would probably bring it up and I hate being embarrassed. Drum role, PLEASE! When you lift the lever on the top of the pressure relief valve up. There I said it and I'm glad I did.

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Date created: 2011-01-24 Name: Steve - BELTLINE HEATING

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"relief valve"
I will let you in on a little info ... Boilers seldom blow relief valves. It is usually the system that causes the valve to blow. Either too small of an expansion tank or a leaking pressure reducing valve. ( water is leaking into the system.) The boiler can cause the valve to blow if there isn't enough flow. .... Again I would not have had a hardware store install my high eff. boiler. I have never seen water running under a concrete floor do damage other than wash the dirt out from underneath. Take some pictures of your install and post the link to them here and I will give you some advise.

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Date created: 2011-01-24 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Reputable Installer"
Al Y--Palos Park, Illinois To all you D.I.Y.S.ers that procure your own boilers and install them yourself. KUDOs to you. Most people don't have any idea how a lite turns on when you flick a switch. Many installer won't install a boiler that the homeowner buys, I will if the application is proper. I'm not going to install a 399K boiler in a house that has 72K BTU/hr heat loss in the coldest day in winter. I don't make a profit on the boiler, but I will on the auxiliary stuff, and besides, I will know the job is done right. To all You D.I.Y.S.ers, here is something to consider. 1) How do you know what kind and size boiler your house needs? This is a BIG deal! It is call application and if not proper it is the start of Big Big problems.--Now the real deal--2)DID YOU DO A COMBUSTION ANALYSIS ON YOUR NEW BOILER as a part of commissioning. Why is this important you ask? "Well, Grasshopper". When the boiler comes from Heat Transfer Product, the company did a combustion analysis, I not sure they did, I never asked, but I believe they did. So why do you need to do it again? It is because a COMBUSTION ANALYSIS sets the gas valve to the most efficient air/fuel ratio and the air/fuel ratio is a variable. What Heat Transfer Product set, to get the boiler to fire, may not be the correct ratio for your installation. Let me explain. First the fuel. British Thermal Units (BTUs) are a measure of energy. Nat. gas has so many BTUs per cubic foot (heat value). In my area it is 1020 BTUs/cu ft. In some areas of the U.S. it can be as low as 800 BTUs/cu ft. Your gas supplier can tell you. So, the combustion ratio that HTP sets can be wrong for your area if your BTUs/cu ft is different. Secondly, the air. Air is denser at sea level than in Denver, CO. Elevation affects the combustion ratio (less oxygen). That is why furnaces and boilers are de-rated for altitude to maintain the air/fuel ratio. HTP's elevation may be different than yours affecting your boiler's efficiency. So get someone with a recently calibrated combustion analyzer and do a COMBUSTION ANALYSIS on your boiler and set the gas valve properly. See, it's complicated, Huh!

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Date created: 2011-01-24 Name: Homer
Location: Nevada

Satisfaction Rating:
Review:
"Reputable Installer"
Randy--Lakewood NY-- I've given some thought to your question. Heat Transfer Products recommends that the exhaust be 18" above the air intake as hot exhaust gasses rise. In my own installation, the exhaust exits out of the top of the B-vent that was for my old boiler. I ran the 3" PVC pipe up the center of the old B-vent to the top of the chase. My air intake is side wall vented. So, the venting (intake and exhaust) is 25' apart and on the same side of the house. I do not use or recommend concentric venting (roof or sidewall). Separation is your friend as long as the air pressure (blowing wind, etc) is about equal on both vents. There is resistance to flow with pipes. That is why you have vent length limitations on intake and exhaust venting. But, I would prefer less resistance on the intake and the same or more resistance on the exhaust. You don't want the gas valve starved for air. Ideally, combustion analysis (setting up combustion ratios-air to fuel) should be done with the case closed, but rarely is. Another thing, Short venting, less than 10', can create a situation where the Carbon Monoxide acidic exhaust gas can be pulled back into the combustion chamber and work its way up into the blower. The blower does a post purge for a number of seconds to clear the combustion chamber of exhaust gasses, but with short venting this may not be long enough. This time (the time that the green burner "on" lite on the control module goes out and the blower stops) can be increased which helps with this problem. A certified installer with the proper software can do this. Pretty complicated, Huh! Now, how would I as a homeowner check to see if my boiler was sucking in exhaust gasses (gas reversion)? I think that I would buy a Knight CO detector with a digital readout and alarm from Costco or Home Depot for $29 and plug it into a thin extension cord and place it in the boiler cabinet, close it up and monitor it for a while. Any read greater than 0 parts per million would give me concern. The higher the ppm the greater the concern. I have never tried it, but it is a cheap fix and would probably work. Good Luck.

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